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Was it Andre Gide who said, "It is better to be hated for who you really are than to be loved for who you aren't"? I'm thinking of making this one of my thoughts to live by.

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( 41 comments — Leave a comment )
last_journal
Nov. 24th, 2002 11:27 pm (UTC)
It might have been said by Gide or one of many of the fin de siecle artists, poets, writers. It sounds like Whistler or perhaps, going further back Sydney Smith. Andre Gide certainly said, through 'The Counterfeiters' " The most decisive actions of our lives ... are most often unconsidered actions." More to the point today is his observation that 'It is with noble sentiments that bad literature is written' (letters) But are you old enough yet to live in the manner of a Grande Dame, hated for your wit and ruthlessness rather than as simply an irritation which is what so many are 'hared' for. Most people that are truly 'hated' are so either because they deserve to be, tyrants, bullys and the like, or because of their difference to 'us.' A difference which is an affront or a challenge to society or to our personal belief system. It is reaaly quite hard to be hated for the right reasons.

Love, however is relatively cheap and can be quite nourishing if the diet is varied.
judith
Nov. 25th, 2002 07:07 am (UTC)
No, not quite old enough to live as a Grande Dame - in any case, I am not ruthless - or am I? Maybe that's it.

You are far better educated than I. I had an okay education for my time and for a public school, better than what, it seems, many young people get now. But I studied very little serious literature. I read tons now, making up for it, but feel at times quite out of it. ANyway, I looked it up - and it is Gide.

I would be hated for being different. For thinking differently. More to the point, for letting people know these thoughts and not apologizing for them, and for being almost arrogant in my beliefs. Why do I think it's bad to believe I'm right? Maybe I'm not saying that the way I mean. I like to be open, to accept others' ways of seeing things. But there is a limit, in me, to how much I can accept. It's a complicated path to tread, one I don't understand all that well myself.

My therapist says I am a passionate person, that she likes this about me. I worried that some subjects in conversation really bring out a part of me that I can't seem to control, that I can only speak about heatedly, even as I realize people are backing away. Sometimes I imagine them thinking, "There she goes again", dismissing my words because they think I'm raving. I don't want to be considered "raving". I want to speak in a rational, considered way, and know when to shut up. If I can accomplish this, and still be hated for what I believe, then I can accept that, embrace it.

Good point, that it is hard to be hated for the right reasons. I think that's the point Gide was making.

As for love, I haven't found it cheap in my life. I stupidly want to be loved for what I am also. And not for what I am not.
last_journal
Nov. 25th, 2002 08:25 am (UTC)
Re:
Hmmmm This is one I have to come back to to do justice to. Re Education, I left school at 15 and never had a single GCSE, GSE or as it would be in the US 'not graduating from High School'. I then attempted to get my BA but left after 2 years to avoid Finals which I knew I would fail. I only got into University in the first place through Chutzpa and writing an appreciation of Eliot's 4 Quartets which split the faculty into Love her/hate her camps. I did not know this until I left.

On Therapy. Therapy Like Church should be a learning experience which you move on from.
It has only two things to teach.
1) Everybody is Paranoid (in the classical sense of believing words or ideas can actually harm them.
2. That the first 6 years of one's life are formative.

These two truths should be mastered in 1-2 years depending on the transference.

I was surprised that your therapist expressed an opinion. So she isn't of the analytical tradition.
judith
Nov. 25th, 2002 09:16 am (UTC)
Education, of course, comes from many sources. I don't much like the idea of forcing children to spend their days studying rather than playing, so I am not an advocate of forcefeeding education. I remember, when I visited Italy in 1994, that the twin sons of the person I traveled with were about six years old and spending hours and hours on schoolwork outside class. I thought it was horrible. WE Americans are not, generally, as well educated as children in some European countries, but I would not want to sacrifice childhood to make up that difference. Surely there is a better way.

Therapy. No, Jill is not an analyst. Therefore, we never have discussions of formative years or whether one is paranoid or not. To me, at this time in my life, therapy is an opportunity to be listened to, to be heard. I see jill once a month for this purpose. It helps me to hear myself, to think. I do all the work, naturally. I just use Jill as a sounding board, a chance to check my progress. She has told me that she does not know how she does what she does. She doesn't follow any set theory. What I've noticed is that she is very positive and accepting. Genuinely. And she has no problem saying she likes me as a person, quite apart from our therapeutic relationship. For me, that is important too.

Years ago my daughter and I went to see a child psychologist. I was amazed when he actually told us things to do, was "directive". It was what I needed at the time. It took a load off me.

Before that, I discovered cognitive therapy, and learned to use those tools. I think, of all of my experiences, this was the most useful.

I remember, though, when I was a teen, I had the idea that therapy=analysis and that only through analysis could I possibly face, confront, and overcome my own demons. I no longer believe this. I have never undergone analysis, do not know specifically where many of my fears and misconceptions come from, but have a general idea when I am facing reality and when I am not. That seems to be enough.

The trouble with these discussions is that they leave so much unsaid. I never know when to quit.
last_journal
Nov. 25th, 2002 03:58 pm (UTC)
Re:
I only believe in analysis.
(no subject) - judith - Nov. 25th, 2002 08:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: - last_journal - Nov. 25th, 2002 09:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
last_journal
Nov. 25th, 2002 10:24 pm (UTC)
Re: knowing when to quit
nods sympathetically.,No I see that. How does that make uou feelJudith,(encouraging smile)it's alright,take your time.
Re: knowing when to quit - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 06:50 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: knowing when to quit - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 09:21 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: knowing when to quit - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 10:11 am (UTC) - Expand
Re:organized..... - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 10:22 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: organized..... - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 11:47 am (UTC) - Expand
The quick and the dead. - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 01:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
last_journal
Nov. 26th, 2002 05:34 am (UTC)
Re:
re:not being educated as well as europeans - could this be a cause of an extended national infancy best symbolised by your leaders and their penchant for playing war games?

How do youhave a general idea when you are facing reality or not. *shrug* What is reality? How does one define it? - a rhetorical question.

We have 'therapists' in England who don't know how they do what they do - its a good way to make a living I guess,and the mystery may seem almost 'spiritual'.
(no subject) - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 06:55 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 08:58 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 10:42 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Judy for President... - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 10:50 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Blair & Sharon - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 10:40 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Blair & Sharon - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 11:55 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Blair & Sharon - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 12:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 07:00 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 08:25 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 08:32 am (UTC) - Expand
filters & context - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 12:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: filters & context - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 12:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: filters & context - judith - Nov. 26th, 2002 01:11 pm (UTC) - Expand
' I have not done a good job... - last_journal - Nov. 26th, 2002 02:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
bryantcafe
Nov. 27th, 2002 04:26 pm (UTC)
Opinions
I would say there are many other things someone can get out of therapy. It sounds as if church and therapy are stages one must move out of. I can see where that might not be true at all. For me being an adult is a spiral...I move into understanding, I move into greater enlightment, then I become a beginner, then I am aware I know nothing. And I continue to seek and learn and then I go back into therapy. I am 58. I am beginning to realize (duh!) that there are more things in heaven and earth than I have ever dreamed about. I know so little. Understand so little.
Re: Opinions - last_journal - Nov. 28th, 2002 03:17 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Opinions - last_journal - Nov. 28th, 2002 03:45 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Therapy & Church - last_journal - Nov. 28th, 2002 12:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Therapy & Church - last_journal - Nov. 28th, 2002 01:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
luckydragongirl
Nov. 25th, 2002 05:32 am (UTC)
Wow, that's a great quote. That's something I really need to keep in mind in my own life. Thanks for posting it.
judith
Nov. 25th, 2002 06:54 am (UTC)
Eureka
I found it! THe actual words:

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

And it is Gide, yes. I heard it on public radio the other day, on the Writer's Almanac. Garrison Keillor repeated one quotation by Gide, then said this one, and I didn't catch whether it too was by Gide, but it sounded like it could have been.

I thought it was great, too, because I struggle with the consequences of saying what I think. It is time for me to let go of wanting to be liked all the time.
luckydragongirl
Nov. 25th, 2002 10:28 am (UTC)
Re: Eureka
Me too. Thank you.
last_journal
Nov. 25th, 2002 12:47 pm (UTC)
Uhuh
bryantcafe
Nov. 27th, 2002 05:58 pm (UTC)
The art of conversation
For me, I feel very engaged in learning about another's point of view when I feel I am respected for my differences. It is hard for me to talk with someone who has no interest in the dialogue, the give and take of learning the other. In that way, we both win. We stretch our understanding, and we may even move, if ever so slightly, into a new direction through the discourse.
ex_kim_hatto286
Nov. 29th, 2002 03:07 am (UTC)
Re: The art of conversation
tactics, he has been replaced by 13 other 'pseudo russians' among which is one called 'fuckoff2000' so last_journal is deleted while I figure a way round this. This morning I couldn't use it anyway it was insisting I log on to every page and with every click. I notice at least two other journals have decided to delete but I didn't know them...I'll see what happens next, maybe leave it awhile and set up from scratch. So far the biog seems uninfected by cossacks. I notice 2 other journals are deleting BTW...
Kim

I'm not sure whether this note is adressed to me or generally ~ it's weird replying from one journal on behalf of another. But just in case there is a basic misunderstanding due to my 'uhuh' comment I was parodying my analyst's stock response - not exactly directive.(smile) and quite rightly not. I have a strong respect for other's views but an exchange which goes on for a couple or more hours leaves me needing to take time out....But if I have offended you, (don't see how) I offer my apologies without quite knowing why. ... I really DO believe that therapy and Church are learning experiences one moves on from - and I have no desire to discuss it. It's an 'article of faith' with me.
K
bryantcafe
Dec. 2nd, 2002 09:05 pm (UTC)
No offense
No offense, just offering my point of view. Take it or leave it; that's fine with me. Cheers, Mary
( 41 comments — Leave a comment )

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